Immigration vs. Family Law Leads: Key Strategies for Converting Both

This is going to be an excellent episode with Mr. Marcus Torigian, one of our provider attorneys out of Fresno, California. This is essentially a two-part episode because Marcus takes both family law leads and immigration leads. And the first half of the episode we talk about his process for family law leads and the second half of the episode we talk about his immigration process which is very different. And that’s one of the things we dive into on this episode is what are the differences in the process to be effective in fielding a family law lead versus an immigration lead. And there are very specific differences and me and Marcus discuss those. So if you’re either new to fielding immigration leads or you’re fielding immigration leads right now, this is a great episode for you to get some more tips, and strategies for how you can make the adjustments necessary to be effective and convert immigration leads into paying clients.

One of the other highlights of this call is Marcus will dive directly into his three-tier system that he uses for tailoring his services to the needs of his clients in the family law arena. So those three-tiers are basically three separate price points based upon what the client can afford. So he goes into what those price points are, the amount of services he delivers, the types of options that are encompassed in each tier. And so for those of you who are also looking for ideas on ways in which you can also start working with more clients by offering more creative, flexible on bundled options, he’s going to get into specifics on exactly how he does that and what those price points are so you get some more ideas on how to do that.

This is a great episode. He’s been working on this for a long time. He’s developed some great strategies. He’s a straight talker and has a lot of great tips and practices you can start implementing right away to make some changes. So with that, please enjoy this episode with provider attorney Marcus Torigian out of Fresno California.

Below is the transcription of this episode from our Unbundled Attorney Mastermind Podcast. You can listen to the entire episode by clicking here.

Dave Aarons: Hey Marcus welcome to the show.

Marcus Torigian: Good afternoon, how are you?

Dave Aarons: I’m doing extremely well. Glad that we got a chance to jump on and kind of dive into how things have been going. I think we’ve been working together for, gosh, it’s been at least over a year now, hasn’t it?

Marcus Torigian: Pretty close, I think so.

Dave Aarons: Yep. So maybe a good place to start Marcus, is you can give everyone a little bit of background on how you got started in the practice of law and the areas of law you focus on, and the region and maybe something you focus on in your firm, or something that makes you a little bit unique about the way you approach working with the clients.

Marcus Torigian: Well I got out of law school in 1993 and after passing the bar I started practicing. My first job was with the District Attorney’s Office in a county in Central California called Tulare County. People from the Central Valley will know that county very well and practiced there for about three years and that’s where I really cut my teeth in litigation. Although it was criminal prosecution, you get a great opportunity being out in the courtroom every single day, and getting the opportunity to do jury trials, and court trials and all the like. I had a very high volume level, so over a three year period I was lucky enough to have quite a bit of opportunity there.

And then I broke off from that office and started my own practice in ’98, ’99. And practicing at the beginning all areas of law as most people do when they first start practicing. And very quickly kind of whittled my way back down to the areas of law that I felt most comfortable and what I enjoyed practicing the most which are criminal defense, family law, and I’ve been doing more immigration lately. That has come along in the last few years.

And I particularly enjoy the litigation aspect because that’s where my comfort zone is in practicing is, in the sense that I’m very comfortable in the courtroom. I’m very at ease dealing with judges, opposing parties, litigating issues, very comfortable with the Evidence Code and so that’s where I’m really trying to play to my greatest strengths more than anything, and that’s where my strengths are. And in family law and criminal law, luckily, you get an opportunity to be in the courtroom quite a bit. So I’ve had the opportunity over these 20 plus years to try many cases in both family law and criminal law. Had very good success doing so as it relates to the area of particular family law.

I’ve been doing that since I opened my private practice. And handled every kind of family law case, do every type of area of family law. So things that branch out even to ancillary parts of family, guardianships and things like that. And there are some things that relate to criminal and family law like CPS cases.  So when you do that and you’re dealing with families and parents and children, and all those types of areas, you get to see a broad breath of types of cases. Gets me all different types of people and see quite a bit of different factual kind of scenarios that make you comfortable with cases come through your office.

Now being years down the road, being able to give confident legal advice to people and real legal advice. And the model of my office has been since I practiced, if you want to come into an attorney’s office and let them, and have that attorney tell you what you want to hear, I always tell them you’re in the wrong place. If you want to have an attorney that’s going to tell you what you need to hear and tell you the truth, then you’re in the right place. And I can tell them that because I know what is real about cases and what’s you know, not to mislead and not to give false expectations. And I think that’s really a critical part of the lawyer’s job is to manage the expectation of the client so that they know as they get involved in this litigation process what to expect and how to go though it. Because it’s something that’s new for them most times. Or it’s something that’s very foreign to them. And you want to have somebody who’s going to be a good Shepard in the process of doing that for them.

Dave Aarons: Right. Yeah and I think most people when you make it clear that you’re going to be telling them the straight forward truth, I think that gives for the most part a lot more confidence in the fact that they know that you’re not there to sugar coat it. You’re willing to tell them what you can and what you can’t-do and what you can accomplish. And I would assume that makes them feel more confident with you as opposed to attorneys that are willing to tell people whatever they want to hear to try to land a case.

Marcus Torigian: Absolutely. There are always going to be, as the old phrase, there are always going to be people at the end of the bell-shaped curve, at one side of it, they’re going to want an attorney to tell them what they want to hear. But, that doesn’t mean that’s going to be the result that they get either. And it’s my job and I think it’s incumbent upon anybody to give good advice and give good shepherding of a case and have the client at the end of the case say, “Well he told me he was going to do this, he did these things and that’s what happened basically.” And nobody can ever predict absolute outcomes, but you can at least give some kind of level of security and comfort to the person to know where their case is going basically. And, then on top of that-

Dave Aarons: Right.

Marcus Torigian: You have somebody that’s familiar, myself, with all the procedural codes, the evidentiary codes, and then more than anything in family law which I think is very, very critical is somebody who practices in the area, knows the attorneys that you’re going up against, if you are going against opposing counsel, knows the judges, has relationships with the judges, and what I mean by that, is not like friendships, but has had multiple, multiple cases with those judges to know how each one of those judges thinks.

Because family law courts are courts of equity, the judge is the sole fact-finder and arbitrator of these matters. So you need to know how these people think, each and every one of them before a person dives into these things and says, “Well, I’m going to go in front of this judge and you know I want to get this and I want to try and fight for that.” Well, you need to know where that judge is coming from and that’s critical.

Dave Aarons: Okay well the other thing here is, and maybe we can kind of dive in a little bit because you are doing an extremely great job with the clients that we’re we sending you. So many of them are giving great feedback and also you have an excellent conversion rate. You’ve done well with both family law and the immigration leads we’ve just started sending you. So, maybe we can dive into a little bit, kind of your process and how you go about working with the folks and shepherding them through the process that you’ve described.

So maybe a good place to start is … I know you’re pretty busy with your caseload and so forth, so you have some staff right that helps with the fielding the leads. So maybe the moment the lead comes in, who initially makes that call and then from there what is their goal with the initial call to schedule him in for an appointment. And do they give them some information about the case? So maybe just walk through that initial step on how you go about contacting the clients as they come in.

Marcus Torigian: Yeah, I do have a staff. I have a receptionist at the office that basically gets the intake contact from a bundle. Contacts the client. Makes immediate contact. Gets them set-up for a consultation and then she does a more in-depth intake so that I can review everything. So I’m familiar by the time the consultation occurs or is scheduled, whenever it’s scheduled. To get right into it as quickly as possible.

Typically what I do is anywhere from a half an hour to up to about 45 minute free consultation and then what I do and what I’ve done in this situation is I kind of tier my help for these people if they are looking for my services. What I say is there are representation where if I’m going to help give you advice and guide you through the process. If you’re not looking for an attorney to go to court and handle the whole case for you, there are one type of representation. We’re going to help you go through everything and get you all prepared to do what you need to do in court. And really walk them through and give them a whole lot of materials that I have to help guide them through the process.

There is another tier of my assistance would be, we prepare all their documents for them but they don’t need, they can go pro se to court and represent themselves but we prepare all their documents for them.

And then the last one is we’re preparing all the documents and going to court and doing everything for them basically. And I offer that to any of the clients, whatever best suits their financial and their expectational needs, basically.

Dave Aarons: Right. And so your staff member Denise, or Jackie, or whoever it is who makes the initial call, so their job is to get on the phone and find out the facts and basic, ask main questions to get an outline on the case. Do they also give the client expectation on costs? Or are they trained just to say, “That’s something you can talk with Mr. Torigian? Every case is a little bit different. My job here is just to get some information about your case and then schedule you in to meet with him.”

Marcus Torigian: No I typically talk cost with them. What they’re really there to do is … The first two things I need to know off the bat is I need to understand the jurisdiction of the case and I need to make sure that even though it is family law it’s something that I can provide some help with. Like for instance, sometimes there are a few of these leads, that they just came out of court for instance, and they just got an order and they don’t like it. Well, that’s not really a go back to court, that might be an appeal issue or a lit issue potentially.

So it’s where is their case going to be? what kind of case do they have? Or do they have a modification or is this more of a guardianship case? Or is this a … There are been a few contacts I’ve received where they’re actually already in CPS Court. And if they’re thinking about a modification, so you to kind of, you have to make sure you know where their jurisdiction is and what type of case they have. And then geographically for me, because I limit it to three counties of work because of my familiarity. I have had a few that have called and they live in Fresno or live in Tulare, but their case is in Los Angeles or something like that. Well, I don’t take those cases. I used to do that a long time ago, but I don’t anymore. I just stay in my three counties basically.

I have them filter that out right off the bat. And then get basic facts about the case. You know, I want to know is there is an existing order in place or what kind, if it’s a divorce. Where are they in the stage? Whose filed? Are there court dates? All that kind of stuff. The basic informational stuff so I know what we’re dealing with and that really allows me to understand, are we a time is of the essence type of situation where they’ve been served with papers and there are a week to go for court? Or is it a situation where they want to file against somebody or is the combination of those things? Whatever it is.

Dave Aarons: Okay. And so really for them, it’s jurisdiction, basic facts, and the reason I ask is that there are a lot of attorneys who are quite busy like you are and don’t always have the time to make that initial call to leads at least as close to real-time as is best. Right? And so they want to have a staff member perhaps, or explore using a staff member to help them with making some of those initial calls.  And there are some do’s and don’ts about that because what you can also do, if they talk too much about the case or get into the cost and so forth, or try to sell a consultation fee, sometimes you can start losing people just on the initial contact. So for you, they basically just find out jurisdiction, find out the basic facts of the case. If the client starts asking about the costs of your services, does Jackie or Denise get into it with them or do they say they need to speak with you about that?

Marcus Torigian: If the client asks right off the bat, then yeah, they can, the ladies at the office, they can certainly address those things. But I don’t typically have them address that unless the client broaches the subject first. I think it comes better coming from me when I talk to them a little bit about their case and I tell them there is a tiered way of doing things to give them options. But if the client asks, of course, they don’t pawn that off and say, “You have to ask Mr. Torigian about that.” No. They know how it all works and they can explain it, certainly.

Dave Aarons: Okay. So they have a good understanding of the different tiers and they say, “Well, it really just depends on the amount of representation you want. We have limited, we have this, we have that.” So, at least the client knows that they have a lot of options that you can tailor to them to fit in the budget basically.

Marcus Torigian: Yeah. Absolutely. But I don’t want the staff saying, “Okay, well Mr. Torigian does it this way and this way and this way.” Because like you say, you can scare off people with that, throwing out numbers at them right off the bat, kind of thing. And so, you never know, as you talk to them. Once they talk to me, sometimes maybe they wanted a limited representation, but after they talk, they might want the full thing where you go in there. They just may feel more comfortable after talking with me. So you don’t want to get numbers in their head unless they’re actually asking first. That’s the way I feel about it.

Dave Aarons: Yeah I think really the only thing the client really needs to know at that stage is can you help them? Do you understand the situation? Can you get them help? And second, do you have options that you can work with them to fit in their budget? Are the finances going to be a problem or not? And, if it’s not a problem, then that’s it. They go, “Okay. It sounds like he can help and he’s got options that can kind of fit people’s budgets. Great.” And then they can take the next step.

Marcus Torigian: Yeah, exactly. Really the ladies in the office, Denise in particular, does 95% of this. Is it in an area that we can help them? And I need basic facts. Once I get on the phone with them, I can have an intelligent conversation with them and be able to before I even get on the phone with them, I’ve got a good feel for what the general idea of this case is, that kind of thing.

So I go right into some questions and they can … just like I said earlier,[inaudible 00:16:20] I don’t want to tell you what you need to hear. I don’t want to dilly dally and talk around generalities. I want to get into some things right off the bat so they feel confident in my services. They feel like I know what I’m talking about and I think that direct approach helps. Because I can’t tell you how many of these contacts say particularly the ones that hire, but even the ones who can’t afford to hire, or want to come back they say, “I like the way you talk. You talk real straight to me. You get to the facts and get down to stuff quickly.”

And that’s the way I’ve played it and the way I’ve done it because that’s the way I am in life about everything. That’s the way I put it out there to the clients. It’s no different sitting here talking to you right now, talking to my friends or talking to a client. I play it straight down the fairway as I can.

Dave Aarons: Right exactly. So maybe we can shine a little bit more of a light on the types of options that you offer. So when they come in the door, in the consultation, what are some things that you have learned to do that kind of help with getting that meeting forward? And maybe, it’s just a standard consultation like any other attorney does, but, or is there anything that you do that makes that process a little more comfortable for the client? And how do you kind of get down to what they need help with and then starting to figure out what the type of option they’re going to choose financially as far as the amount of representation they want.

Marcus Torigian: Yeah, it really comes down to are they the petitioning party or the moving party or the responding party? Because if they’re the ones coming in seeking to file something, whatever it is, divorce, a Motion to Modify, guardianship, whatever it is, I want them to come in, it’s more of a talk session to find out what’s going on to justify why they are going to ask the court for whatever it is they’re going to ask the court, basically.

As opposed to the person who is responding to someone filing something against them. It really comes down to this, if they’re the responding party, I need to see what they filed against you, someway I need to see that. And if there are existing orders in place, I need to see those. Because somebody is coming in asking for changes in something or to change a current situation, so I need to know where you stood before they filed this and what the person whose filing it against you are asking for. Those are critical for me to give them a good overview of what the next step would be. Then I can hear their side of the story so I can tell them, “Okay. This is how it’s going to fit into what’s going on here basically.” I really want to know that right off the bat. Are they the responding party or are they the petitioning or moving party, right off the bat. And-

Dave Aarons: Got ya.

Marcus Torigian: And further than that is, when they’re the petitioning or moving party it’s more of a …. the meeting is a little bit less, how do I put this, it’s less intense, in the sense that they’re the ones coming in and asking. So, I just want them to free flow and free talk a lot of this and then we kind of craft basically, I know what you want to do okay let’s talk about somethings and almost strategize a little bit. But if they’re the responding party, the first thing is not only are we responding, but I need to see what the situation is, but what’s our upcoming court date? What are our deadlines? What are we going to do? And, what can we do inside these times or do we need to get a continuance or what do we need to do? So there are a little bit more of a triage kind of philosophy with that and the responding-

Dave Aarons: It’s almost like … it’s like you’re taking a more active role. Okay, you need to respond. You have this amount of time. Okay, here’s exactly what needs to be done. Here’s what we need to do next as opposed to, if they’re petitioning, it’s kind of on them to be the impetus to start this so, it’s more like, what do you want to do? With the questions, it’s more open-ended to get a feel for how they want to proceed.

Marcus Torigian: So the other thing I do, whenever they’re in that responding type of situation is because generally, we have a time is the essence situation. I typically like to ask … I like to ask a lot of the questions. When they’re the petitioning or moving party, I let them talk and just, I listen and do a lot of listening and kind of hear the whole … want to hear everything so I get an idea.

When they’re responding, I’m also trying to size up how they’re going to do on the stand right off the bat. You know if they have to get off the stand or they have to testify, I want to size them up real fast because that time is of the essence. That’s going to be my best chance to see how my client’s going to do if they’re going to have to testify in some way. And, I’m not going to have a lot of time to get to know this client before we’re going to be in court really quickly. So it’s a great time to be a little bit more aggressive with them and see how they respond to questions. So I do a lot more of the actual questions and then they provide the question answer thing as opposed to when they come into petition I say spill your guts. Tell me what’s going on, basically.

Dave Aarons: Right. It’s almost like when they’re petitioning you’re kind of sitting back in your chair and just listening and really kind of asking questions and so forth. Whereas, oh you need to respond. Let’s get right down to business and you’re kind of leaning forward and getting the work done.

Marcus Torigian: I think you have to. I mean I feel you have to, like I said, time is of the essence and you know we could be … I had a woman who just hired me from Unbundled yesterday. We’re going to court Friday. Next Friday. And you know, I’m going to meet with her again next week but that’s going to be pretty much it with my caseload and what I’m doing, I’m probably going to have that meeting yesterday, and a meeting next week, and we’re going to court. And, I have to be able to size that up and manage that really well before I get into court and that’s where I think a lot of the training in court from my past is good, in the sense that I cross-examined witnesses and jury trials in situations where you have to manage the stuff real quick and be able to handle high volume witnesses and things like that. That’s where all that comes into play and I think those skills just get developed by doing it over and over and over again.

Dave Aarons: Right. Absolutely. Okay, so lets talk a little bit about … one way or another the client wants to move forward whether he’s petitioning and responding. Maybe we can talk about both scenarios and how it plays into how it may be structured. How do you start identifying the type of representation … maybe we could also talk about how do you explain that to the client. What would you say to a client, “Okay, so here’s your options.” Do you first find out where they’re at financially and then tailor accordingly? Or do you kind of explain it to them and then ask them how much they can afford? How do you start articulating? And how do you say to explain the tiers you offer, the unbundled services, the limited representation, and then the full representation?

Marcus Torigian: Well I always listen to everything about the case first and get through all of that stuff first and tell them in the consultation, “This is what … this is the path of which your case is going.” And I always make a joke out of it and say, “okay, now do you want the bad news?” And they know what the bad news is and they go, “Yeah. What are your fees?” So we go through them. That’s kind of like the punchline to the consultation. I don’t start that off. I don’t walk in and say prices, blah, blah, blah. That’s always the punchline to the consultation. And-

Dave Aarons: Right.

Marcus Torigian: Then I explain the whole tier system with them basically. I want to make them at ease with talking with me about their case and feeling good about me helping them in whatever way I can. And then I explain this is what I can do for you. Now, of course, like anything else, there are exceptions to the rule. There are certain clients that you have to … they want to know right off, they don’t even want to talk to you until they hear numbers. That’s very few though, I find. But there are a few that say, “I want to know that right off the bat.” Okay, fine. We’ll tailor the consultation that way.

There are some that … their unrealistic. Every once in a while you’ll get one that thinks it’s like legal aid basically. And you can kind of tell cause they’re talking to you, they’re telling you that they have no money. They have no ability to pay. So you kind of like, you don’t understand, as you’re talking about their case, you say, “You do understand that you’re talking to an attorney that you have to pay money for kind of thing.” So you bring them to Jesus a little bit quicker than you have to with other people about the reality of hiring an attorney. Those are very, very small parts of it though. I mean those extremes are very, very small parts. Most of it, you go through the whole background, explain the process and what they have to do and then I hit them with the punch line, “Okay this is what I can do to help you and these are the ways I can do it with the tiering system.

Dave Aarons: Right. Okay, and we have a lot of attorneys that either is still somewhat new to offer unbundled legal services and thinking about how to start structuring these types of creative options where they’re working with clients on a more limited basis or maybe they’re even brand new to it. I’ve always been trained just to do four representations, charge retainer up front, and bill by the hour. So how does that work?

Can you talk a little bit about how those more limited options work? Maybe I know every case is a little different depending on how much you’re providing, but what typical fee structures are? Do you do it as a flat rate? And how much does it roughly cost? And maybe talk about the way in which you kind of craft those options with the client.

Marcus Torigian: Sure. Well and frankly prior to working with you guys, that’s the way I did everything to, was just flat retainers. Basically, I didn’t have any of this tier system with other people basically. I saw what you guys were advertising and how you did this and what your set-ups do and let me rethink this and how I can work within this system. So this has been created in working with you guys. You can call it Tier One. We don’t really have a name for it. I call it Tier One but it doesn’t mean anything. It’s just a name.

There is the one where I’m going to just basically … You’re going to prepare your own paperwork. You probably already prepared your own paperwork. You just need some guidance or something like that. Now I’m $250.00 an hour and typically what I charge and what I say is, “Look, for a couple of hours, for two to three hours of work, I’m going to get … we’re going to organize everything for you. We’re going walk you through the whole process. We’re going to explain everything. We’re not going to be your attorney of record. And, we’re not going to be preparing documents, but we’re going to guide you.” So, they can bring in the forms and we can help ’em write it. And put it all together for them or put what they need together.

I also have a ton of guidance type materials that I can provide to them and give to them for free basically. And when I say free. I have it all … I just keep it printed out and get it over to them basically. And it’s things that I’ve created over the years that really walk them through that and a lot of the things that I’m going to tell them verbally are the same things that are on these pieces of paper that they can take with them when they leave the office.

They explain mediation. They explain things like the divorce process, if it’s a divorce. They explain guardianship. Whatever the type of case it is, they are all tailored to a particular case. I’m going to give them materials and sit down with them over a couple of hours, whatever it is, and help guide them through the process. And ultimately, what I like to do is try and write a letter as well, kind of confirming the things that we went through basically. And, also being very frank, it’s kind of a CYA letter for my explaining to them that we were giving you advice, we were giving you materials, but we are not your attorney of record. Just to cover our butt a little bit too, basically. So they don’t-

Dave Aarons: It becomes like a limited scope representation agreement in a way.

Marcus Torigian: And even less than that, because I’m never really the attorney of record. It’s really because of the client if the so-called person then goes to court and says: “Well, I met with this attorney Torigian and he told me blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.”

“Well, is he your attorney?”

“No. He’s not my attorney.”

I have some documentation that shows we’ve never been the attorney. We were providing advice that they were paying for basically.

Then the Second Tier is the one we’re preparing documents for them. They’re still representing themselves, but we’re doing all their documents for them. And this is where my paralegal really comes in. She’s in the meetings with me and we take all the notes. We draft up everything. But then she does all the typing and preparation basically and whatever they pay. She’s paid through that process in working for me basically for the time she works on it. She’s a paralegal that actually works in my office building and works for me and a couple of other attorneys doing other types of things. So she’s an independent contractor but I do quite a bit of work with her and so that’s a different tier.

So typically and I should say typically the Tier One is about $500.00 to … I told the clients $500.00 to as much as $750.00 determine how complex. I figure two to three hours worth of my time that I’m involved. I try to keep it at about $500.00 unless it’s a really, really complex type deal that requires another hour. If I go over I don’t charge them for that because I’ve already told them it’s going to land in that period of time.

Tier Two generally starts from anywhere from $750.00, three hours of time, all the way up to $1500.00 determining how much paperwork we’re going to have to do. How involved we’re going to have to be in getting everything going. It typically lands about a $1000.00 though and then finally the last one is the full-blown representation and that pricing starts at $1500.00.

If it’s a modification of any kind of thing relating to support or any kind of modification in a case, it’s actually a $3,000.00 retainer and I ask for $1500.00 down and I will work out a payment arrangement with them after that because once I’m in the $15000.000 into a case. If I’ve worked that much time in a case, I kind of know what the case is going to end up being, retainer wise. Although the $3000.00 is not a flat rate I know if it’s going to end up being $2000.00 work, $2500.00 worth of work. If it’s going to be more than three or whatever else. And that’s for a certain set of cases. If they’re divorce cases they’re typically $4000.00 retainers and I ask for at least $2000.00 down basically to get started. About half of what the overall retainer is and then we work out payment arrangements for the rest, typically.

Dave Aarons: And do you find … so we talked a little bit it about Tier One and Tier Two, how much actual … We’ve had a lot of attorneys actually give some great feedback on that type of Tier Two model where they’re having the documents prepared for the client and they’re delivering the services for them.  Does it end up taking you as individual lawyer time that many hours, the $750.00 to a $1,000.00? Or so many hours, four or five hours, or are you also at some level leveraging the time of the paralegal to do the drafting for you and maybe seeing a little bit better hourly rate because it’s a little bit less of your time and she’s helping for that bit of time and so forth or is it the actual four hours of your time?

Marcus Torigian: I would tell you if I could do Tier Two all day long. I mean I like to go to court though. Me personally, I like being in court, things like that. For an economic type of situation, the Tier Two would be ideal. You’re not stuck in court in a sense. That’s where you really get eaten up in these things is the time spent waiting around and doing all that.

Yes, you can charge the client for all of that. Yes, you can do that, but then you’ve got clients getting frustrated and waiting around and all that kind of stuff. When you can prepare the stuff for them, give them good advice and they’re on their own kind of thing. That’s to me, you’re going to get the most bang for the buck. It’s less money, but you’re putting less time in basically. I’m charging for my time but like you said, I’m leveraging the paralegal time to get a lot of the typing done and all that kind of stuff. From a strictly financial economic standpoint, you know, yeah, that’s the one where you get the most bang for your buck really.

Dave Aarons: Yeah, this is kind of the myth actually that a lot of attorneys give as the reason why they don’t do unbundled or don’t offer these options, they think if it’s less money, that means they’re making less money. When in reality what we’ve found with most of our attorneys across the network is that in fact whether you’re working for a client on a case for 30 hours or for three hours, it’s still at least the same billable hour at $250.00 an hour. You’re also not stuck with only a few cases, a few clients where if one leaves you’ve just lost 30% of your practice, for example. And third of all, you have the opportunity to leverage some of your time or leverage some technologies because your clients are very happy for the opportunity to work with an attorney for $750.00, $1000.00, $1500.00, even if they don’t have an attorney doing the entire case. Most attorneys won’t even touch as case for that amount and so a lot of the attorneys will offer kind of a flat rate and then like you said, leverage the time a bit with a paralegal.

The effective hourly rate could actually end up even being higher than the standard hourly rate cause they can get the job done for $750.00 or $1000.00 where it might only take you two or three hours of your own personal time and so that starts to be very, very lucrative. The clients are happy. You’re happy. So, that’s the piece that I think a lot of attorneys that are reluctant or are missing is actually it can be a very, very lucrative business model especially given the market place we’re dealing with today.

Marcus Torigian: Well I think it really comes down to this to is, people that are looking on-line through an Unbundled attorney or any kind of thing like that is, they’re looking for something representation and help that’s going to be economical to them, kind of thing. People that have big huge businesses and multi-million dollar divorces and everything like that. Let’s just be straight about it. They know people that they’re going to go to. You’re never going to … I don’t mean to denigrate Unbundled or anybody else but there are somebody they know that does divorce law big case where they’re going to spend the ten, $20,0000.00 for their divorce kind of thing.

Dave Aarons: That’s right.

Marcus Torigian: They’re looking for the W2 type people that are trying to justify getting a divorce. Some child support or child custody thing that’s come up or whatever it is and they’re trying to find a way to get through it. And sometimes they can’t really afford an attorney but they still need that help basically to take ’em all the way through. They can’t afford an attorney.  They can’t go through that whole process. Here’s a way to help that kind of people.

Those people in that particular kind of financial situation, that particular kind of thing. You can give them good, expert, kind of quality advice. You can help them with their paperwork. You can get them in a way so it’s not just them going to court and it’s like a blood bath for them in court because they’re not prepared. And it’s affordable for them and that’s what I think Unbundled is a really, really great vehicle for those types of things.

I don’t mean to like I said, cast spurs, but you’re not going to get the people, the big movie stars kind of thing or whatever you’re talking about. They’re not going to be doing that. You’re going to get a certain kind of clientele and you want to be able to do it and make it affordable for them and give them the same kind of thing because, in the end, the results are all the same, whether you have the biggest divorce case in the world. Or a couple of people that are just making 20, $30,000.00 a year, the end results are child custody, child visitation, child support, spousal. It’s all the same answers when it comes down to it. It’s still the same thing that has to be addressed.

Dave Aarons: Yep. And you’re really making a big difference for these folks because the void of an attorney like yourself Marcus that’s willing to offer these types of options they would literally be left to handle these things on their own. And, like you said, if they’re going into a contested matter or something like this, without preparation, without understanding the court procedures, without having their documents prepared properly, they really could end up in a situation where they’re losing rights they should have.

Marcus Torigian: Right. And I … any attorney that listens to this and has gone to court and sat in court waiting to have their case called and you see all the pro-pers doing this completely unprepared. You guys have all seen the blood bath that occurs out in these courtrooms when these things happen. It’s uncomfortable to watch at times because you see these people that are completely unprepared. It’s just a destruction in there. They may have some good points to work with but they’re never going to get ’em out.

They didn’t file the documents timely. They didn’t put the pleadings together the right way. The pleadings aren’t done correctly. Just like you say they may have some really good legal points but they’re never going to get to see the light of day because things weren’t done correctly.

Dave Aarons: Exactly. That’s why I really appreciate what you are doing and a lot of attorneys in our network is they’re really making the difference. And have you found that by the clients working with you for that basis, getting the documents done, that you’ve had some clients that have had success and that it’s made the difference for them?

Marcus Torigian: Well and I’m not trying to be braggadocios, but to be honest with you. I try to drive them to the Tier Two, but a lot of them, after they talk to me, they want to pay the $1500.00 or the $3,000.00 or whatever. “I like you. I want to hire you to just handle the whole thing.” So what happens is they end up doing that.

I do get my Tier Two stuff as well but I personally would like more of it to be the Tier Two. Me personally, I think it’s more bang for the buck. Because once I get into Tier Three, then I’m back to scheduling court dates and court appearances and clearing calendars, and all that kind of stuff, which I don’t mind, but then it takes into account all those other things that come up basically in dealing with the court scheduling and all those types of things which takes time and takes money. Certainly, I don’t mind them taking me to Tier Three and I don’t mind getting hired for that but at the same time it’s actually my practice so far with Unbundled has been most of the retainers that I would say 80% have been the Tier Three type. You know kind of thing.

Dave Aarons: Yep. You also …[crosstalk 00:37:35]

Marcus Torigian: I’m not complaining. I’m not complaining. I don’t want to-

Dave Aarons: Hey, that’s good too. That works. It sounds like you’re being very reasonable if you have a $3000.00 retainer, taking half down. Working payment plans. That’s a testament too, the fact that you’re being flexible even on the Tier Three options. That makes life more easier for people to pull the trigger there.

Marcus Torigian: I try to be … that’s just my philosophy. It’s just not the place … You want to help these people get through a very, very uncomfortable situation and a very bad situation without having complete scorched earth. I’m not interested in adding to that for them by having some attorney gouging them for money and making promises. I just don’t see the point in any of that. You’re just going to get people hating you eventually and I just don’t see the point.

There are other areas of law, when I do criminal defense cases, not that it relates to this, but I’ve represented some heavy hitting type cases. Murder cases and things like that. They have to spend the money. The work has to be done. It’s not just paying it to me, but it’s the time in trial, and the time to investigate and hire experts. You have to pay big money for stuff like that. If you want a good criminal defense case done.

But here you know changing child support or modifying child support or changing a visitation plan, I just don’t see the point of people having to spend five to $10,000 just to modify little Johnny going with this dad for one extra day a week. I don’t see what you have to litigate about. Get into court, get it done quickly and go battle it out if you have to and try to get that result for the client basically.

Dave Aarons: Exactly.

Marcus Torigian: [crosstalk 00:39:21]Core values, that the more reasonable you are and straight forward you are, the better results you’re going to get. so …

Dave Aarons: Right. And up ’till now we’ve been talking ’bout family law, but I think maybe it was a few months ago, you started taking immigration leads and working more with immigration clients we’ve been sending you.

Can you talk a little bit about those immigration cases, those immigration leads? And, perhaps if the process is any different in the way in which you relate to them. The sales process for example, like that initial meeting, it takes longer. Do you meet with them a couple more times? Or maybe just talk about some of the differences and some of the strategies you’ve developed to do well with the immigration cases.

Marcus Torigian: Immigration, when you guys opened up this wing of Unbundled immigration, I was very interested because I had already started building up my immigration practice. But immigration, completely different than family law. It’s a completely different kind of deal. There is not this emotional aspect to emigration that there is family law although people may be getting deported or whatever else. It’s a much more, it’s a much calmer type situation.

Then what we do is we, like anything else, we take the initial contact, we do an intake. It’s a very thorough intake. The family law you get basic information about the case. We have a very extensive, about a five-page intake for immigration that we need to get a lot of information for. Once we get that intake, I need to review that because there are a bunch of disqualifiers right off the bat before I’m even going to schedule a console with them. There are a lot of things that when you see once they do this intake, you can’t even help these … There are nothing to do for them because a lot of things that they don’t really understand have precluded them from ever applying for certain things, at least under the  state of the law, as it stands right now.

We’ll do a follow-up call and tell them and do a short call and even sometimes I find the time and I call and explain it to them. There are nothing to consult about, you know, cause there are no way to really help them. At the same time, if there are any way to kind of help them, and there are generally two types of immigration cases that I see in the Central Valley practices. It’s either some kind of removal type situation where the immigration, the INS has got a hearing going and they’re talking about removing the person. Deportation, removal type situation. Or it’s a person that’s petitioning for legal permanent residence type situation to eventually become a citizen. So there are not any kind of court proceeding going on, but they want to try to petition to become legal, so to speak.

The ones that are trying to petition for their LPR status, their green card, you want to get that intake so you … can we fit them under one of the many rubrics of immigration that we can get them their green card. Fit it in under, it also helps determine for us, what kind of forms we’re going to have to fill out. What applications we’re going to have to do. And what the fees are going to be because there are different fees for whatever the type of work we have to do. So it allows me before I even get on the phone with them or meet with them, to know how we’re going to drive the case.

If it’s a deportation removal type situation, once again it’s just like court, time is the essence type thing. You want to know when their next hearing is. Luckily the Immigration Court is one of those things that when you get a continuance, if their hearing is coming up real close and they’ve hired you now, they just walked in and hired you to help them with this and you go and get the court and file a motion for continuance and get it, luckily what’s nice about that is you know you don’t put continuances like next week or two weeks later. It’s like six months later, half the time. So it gives you more than enough time to get involved in the case and do what you need to do. It can even be longer than that.

And the only difference is the two Immigration Courts I deal with are Los Angels and San Francisco, mostly San Francisco. My big limiting factor on the intake is are the people from here? From the areas where I have worked? Fresno County, Kings County, Tulare County. Because I need to have that interaction with them on a regular basis. Even though their case may be in San Francisco, I don’t want to have a guy that lives in Los Angeles, has a case in San Francisco and I’m in the Central Valley, it’s just too hard to me. You know people say you can do stuff by email and everything else, but you need to have that face to face contact with the client basically to show him what you’re doing and really interact with them.

So that jurisdictional issue comes in. And the other thing that really with immigration that really has, I have the staff really deal with is the language issue too. What language are we dealing with? In order, because sometimes they have documents that have to be translated, that we need to have transcribed and translated as exhibits for part of our petitions. And most times it’s Spanish, but I’ve got one coming in next week that’s Arabic, and I had one three weeks ago that was Hmong.

So you got to find, and I don’t have ready to go Hmong interpreters and Arabic interpreters just sitting in my office waiting to go. My paralegal and my staff, they speak Spanish fluently so they can at least read through the documents. But you know to get an idea of what we’re dealing with, you’ve got to kind of plan that out a little bit more. So there is a little bit more deliberation when I’m dealing with an immigration case.

Dave Aarons: So if you’re working with someone that speaks a language that you don’t have someone in the staff that speaks that language, how do you go about working with that, so do you bring interpreters into the office or what’s the strategy to work around that?

Marcus Torigian: Well luckily, over these years from doing criminal law. I’ve represented, doing criminal defense, I’ve represented just about every kind of language there is in representing people because I have an appointments contract with Larry Kenneth. I get appointed cases out of Tulare County that the public defender can’t handle or the overflow contract. So I’ve represented just about every different type of language you can think of, and whenever I’m in court and we have a different language client, I make sure I get the court-appointed interpreter, I make sure I  get all their businesses cards basically.

So I have a whole Rolodex of different type of business cards. I’ve got a different type of interpreters  business cards that I can call upon and I always go and make contact with them and talk with them and tell them what I’m doing so they’re not surprised. To be very frank, I’ve always made friends with the interpreters in court. I believe they are one of your greatest assets in court, so I’m not trying to be so much of a smart aleck here, but the judge is the person I have a relationship with the judge, but I feel like they listen to your court reporters and your court clerks and your interpreters are just as important in there because they’re going to help you with things you may need in practicing. So I have that access. I just need to know what language I’m dealing with so I can call the people I need to find to come in and do that kind of work for me.

Dave Aarons: Right. So when you have scheduled consultations, they’ll come in. Do you ever have an interpreter do a three-way call when you’re initially making contact with a lead if it’s determined that it’s a language that your staff can’t speak?

Marcus Torigian: Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. I will [crosstalk 00:46:06]

Dave Aarons: Is that necessary sometimes?

Marcus Torigian: Yeah it is necessary. I will tell you sometimes in doing the immigration with you, I’ve only had three that weren’t Spanish. So, it hasn’t come up that frequently yet. I think I mentioned one of them, actually two of them have been recent. It’s not a thing, it’s something that like I said, that’s why it takes more deliberation because it happens so infrequently I can, if we get a contact with a client, a lot of times the person that’s calling, even if the client speaks, I’m just going to use Arabic, the person whose calling this is a family member that speaks English basically. So they can kind of tell us what’s going on. So we’ll schedule that appointment out even though we made contact.

A lot of times with the family law, we try to get them in the next day. If it was Arabic, I’m just using that as an example, we may kick it out a week, and so it gives us enough time to get what we need to get the interpreter available, kind of thing. The nice part about immigration, unless you’re going through a deportation hearing the next day or something like that, a week later is not a big deal. I don’t find that to be that big of a deal. If they’re petitioning for something, they’re okay with all of that. The only ones that are in court in a deportation and then you need to get them in as quick as possible.

I haven’t had one of those yet that was a different language besides Spanish so I can handle it if it’s Spanish for them to come in the next day, or that afternoon or whatever is necessary.

Dave Aarons: Right. Yeah, and you mentioned that the intake is a little bit longer. You’ve got maybe five pages because you need to determine, get a lot more information, determine if there are barriers and so forth. Do you have your staff do that intake over the phone when they first make that call to that lead to kind of get all that information?

Marcus Torigian: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Aarons: Okay. So they do they intake, kind of fill out all that documentation and then does your staff say we’re going to get that reviewed and then get back to you to set up a consultation?

Marcus Torigian: Right. That’s exactly … well-

Dave Aarons: Okay. So it’s kind of a two-step as opposed to them talking to them, getting the facts and then scheduling. It’s talking to them, fill it out, then review, then call back and schedule kind of thing.

Marcus Torigian: Exactly. Yes.

Dave Aarons: Unless it’s clear that it’s 100% good to go, eh?

Marcus Torigian: Typically, I don’t want the staff to make that decision. As a matter of fact, it’s never happened. They fill out the intake. They get it to me. I’ll see it that night or that afternoon. They’ll call them back today and get ’em set up for a consultation or if there are … I have a couple of colleagues. I don’t think I’ve ever turned one away completely yet because even … There are a few we couldn’t help. But I still want to talk to them on the phone and explain why. If I don’t think there are any door open, I try and double check with some colleagues of mine just to make sure that I’m not missing something that may be an avenue for them. Maybe there are some kind of real unique way to pull it off. We did have one like that about a couple of months ago. And they are a client of the firm right now. We had to find a circuitous way to get it done, but we figured it out, kind of thing. We developed it the right way. It worked out well.

The only thing that’s different with immigration the way I view it, in the sense that I don’t have any tiering system on representation. You’re either hiring me to handle the case or you’re not, basically, and we set the fee schedule. So it’s a little bit different with immigration because there are no just come in and I’ll give you advice, or come in and I’ll prepare paperwork, but not be your attorney. It’s one of those things because I’m dealing with a federal court, I’m not going to monkey around with that thing. It’s either you’re hiring me to help you do this all the way through or not. I’m putting my name on it. I’ll work with a payment plan with them. Once we determine what the fees will be I’ll work with them on that, but I don’t do any type of tiered representation there.

Dave Aarons: Right. And maybe I’ll ask one more or two more questions on immigration and then we’ll wrap it up. I appreciate your jumping on and sharing so openly.

Is there anything different in the consultation with immigration? Obviously you’re dealing with completely different facts, lots of different kinds of information and so forth, but just in the way in which you communicate about your services and what you can do. For example, I would assume it would be the same, you get all the information, you ask questions, you find all the facts, and then there are that punchline moment. Is there a little bit difference in the way in which you communicate maybe because it’s a different demographic? You know, immigrants so they may not have the same level of trust. Or maybe it’s not as emotional, Are there any differences in the way in which you work with the clients and describe your services, then perhaps say family law once you get to the point where you start talking about what you can do for them.

Marcus Torigian: Absolutely. It’s completely different. Family law verses immigration are completely different. I’m a completed different dynamic of an attorney in immigration verses family law. Family law is just exactly what you said, no matter whether you’re the petitioning or the responding there is that emotional thing that’s going on. You’re part therapist for that client. You’re part psychologist for them. As much as you’re a lawyer, you’re trying to manage their emotions and get them to understand what’s going on.

Immigration has none of that basically. I know it’s emotional if so and so is going to be deported, or something like that, but this is more clinical. What is your situation? And let’s find out how long you’ve been in here. What’s going on? It’s more fact gathering and you just have to gather as much information as you can get. As you gather all of that, you begin to craft in your mind what’s the path by which we can take you through this process to get you what you need to stay in the country, whatever method it is. That’s the ultimate goal. I want to stay here. Basically.

Dave Aarons: Right.

Marcus Torigian: I want to be legal. So the goal is always the thing. I want to become legal. I want to stay here. I don’t want to be kicked out of the United States. We all know the end result so what path are we going to take to get you there basically. It’s much more relaxed, I find immigration, it’s really a question and answer. I need to get information. As we get information, we’re going through the process and gathering data. As they provide the information, the questions start to reveal. I should say the solutions start to reveal themselves as you walk through the process 99% of the time.

Family law is completely different. You can’t …  people say I want to fight for this kid for my child or I want to fight for support or whatever, the answers are not that clear right off the bat. There are are a lot of things that are still in flux with that. So it’s a matter of managing those expectations of the client and keeping things all kind of in play. Where immigration is really kind of many times it resolves itself very early on.

Dave Aarons: Right.

Marcus Torigian: It’s just a very, very different dynamic between attorney-client. Very different.

Dave Aarons: Okay. And so then you kind of get all that information, it’s a question answer, and you start to determine the path. You kind of highlight and explain what that path is. And then is there also a little difference in the way you say, “And it’s going to cost this to do this, it’s going to cost this.” Do you have to be more black and white about this is the fee? We have some other feedback from other attorneys that say they just have to be very clear this is what it costs. [crosstalk 00:53:10] They just want to know the cost.  Maybe you can share a little bit about how you deal with the money a little bit more when you’re dealing with immigration client verses family Law.

Marcus Torigian: I think that’s it. I think exactly what you said. It’s a very, very straight forward type situation. I know if I’m going to take an I-130 application I know what that’s going to cost. I know what the fees are. This is what it costs. Now once I tell them that, there are no playing around with the fee. If they say, “Well I can’t pay all that.”

“Well, are you interested in using our services? Can you put down this much? But then you have to make payments every month.” And it’s a real regimented kind of deal for them to keep doing that. And they understand that I’m not going to file anything until at least some portion of the payments are made or whatever else. It’s a real structured type of situation and so it’s very different. And there are a lot of costs to these things. There are filing fees. There is the biometrics. There are you know, there are sometimes with translating of documents you have to hire so many certified people to translate documents. There are a lot of another type of fees that go into this. So, there are costs on top of that. You have to take that all in to account basically.

I have a fee schedule that’s all set out that I’ve created. So all I have to do is figure out is how to take them to this type of scenario where the fees and costs associated with that. It’s all pretty much spelled out. All the costs are spelled out by the Immigration Court and I have a good fee structure that I’ve taken from practicing this and doing this and drawing from and learning from other attorneys and other resources what it cost to do this kind of procedure basically.

Dave Aarons: Right. And I would assume because immigration has time intervals of sometimes three months, sometimes six months, does it give you the flexibility to be able to say, to make a little bit more of a lenience payment plan where maybe you don’t necessarily take $1500.00, you can take five and then every few months you can kind of do as a pay as you go at each step. Do you kind of break it up sometimes by the steps involved with the immigration process?

Marcus Torigian: Absolutely.

Dave Aarons: Right. Okay. So, Phase One is we need to file this. I need this amount to do this phase. And then for Phase Two is, then we need to do this and I’ll need this amount to do this. You tend to go kind of structured in that way?

Marcus Torigian: Yeah. Exactly I find it to be … I used to do some transactional work. I find it to be transactional in nature. You’re preparing documentation for them. And although it’s going to a court, and there is a potential for some litigation. I find it to be very transactional. You’re doing certain documents for this fee. I know it’s still litigation. But to me, it doesn’t feel that way. It feels like you’re just preparing documentation when you’re doing it. I know it sounds very esoteric, I guess, but when I’m doing family law, the pleadings are geared towards knowing we’re going to court to be battling something out. It’s a whole different type of feel to things.

Dave Aarons: Right. As opposed to fill in the blanks and check all the boxes, so it gets through the process, as opposed to preparing a case to defend.

Marcus Torigian: Exactly. You’re preparing your paperwork to go to war, so to speak, in family Law, in a battle. Or I don’t really feel like I’m going to battle in Immigration Court. I feel like I’m preparing the necessary documents. In my mind, I’ve got an idea of what’s going to be successful for them before we ever start filing the thing. I’ve kind of done my pre-planning ahead of time. With family law you file your allegations, you go and now you go and fight for the things you’re trying to get accomplished, kind of thing. Does that make sense?

Dave Aarons: Yes it does. It makes complete sense. Absolutely.

Marcus Torigian: I do a lot of bankruptcy. And bankruptcy has started to wane, you know. But bankruptcy was always one of the things … Before we ever file for Chapter 7 or 13, we did our own bankruptcy kind of plan, to make sure it was going to fly. We would analyze the whole thing and really prepare it well before we ever filed our petition for bankruptcy unless it was an emergency type thing. We always want to make sure, there are the means test. There are all these things you have to do to make sure it’s really … I look at all the debt and everything You almost do like an estate plan. A bankruptcy estate plan to make sure this case is going to go through. And yeah there are always glitches as you go down the road but you deal with them cause you kind of anticipate where maybe the pitfalls are. But you know before you ever put pen to paper or file something you know that this is going to have a good chance of going.

Same thing kind of with immigration, whereas in family law although your file and ask for certain things, it’s still kind of up in the air.

Dave Aarons: Yeah, cause it’s always up to the judge to decide. And it’s the same in immigration, you can still get denied. There are more of a decision happening one way or another and there are a lot of different variables to determine that decision when it comes to family law.

Marcus Torigian: In Family law, that overriding thing, in almost all family law relates to children. The big family law battle is always around children. There is that standard in California being the best interest of the children. Well, what is that? That’s what the judge decides is the best interest of the children. It’s a kind of vague phrase. So the judge can use that phrase, that’s the law, he can qualify anything that’s the best interest of the children.

Where in immigration, if you meet these criteria you can apply for this green card. If you don’t check off certain boxes, you’re out basically, that kind of thing.

Dave Aarons: Right.

Marcus Torigian: It’s much more yes or no. It’s black or white. A lot more black than white in immigration as opposed to family law where it’s very, very shades of gray.

Dave Aarons: Yep. So I guess the last question is, you’ve been working with us for about a year or so, you’ve taken a lot of leads, probably in the hundreds now, is there anything else generally speaking that you’ve developed over these months in fielding leads over and over that has helped you generally speaking with being successful with fielding the leads?

Marcus Torigian: Well, really that tiered thing like I said before I started with Unbundled, I never had tiered representational type, tiered representation or anything like that. It was either you were going to hire me to handle your case or not, basically. So, when I first started with you guys, I didn’t have that either. Over two to three months, and I still am always developing that, you know I’m always, every month I kind of look at it and make sure we’re kind of massaging it. We meet every couple of weeks staff, and we go over things and we talk about stuff, and whatever we can do to refine it more.

But that tiered system of doing things, that’s probably the biggest refinement I’ve made since doing this in the sense that it changed the way I kind of looked at family law. And like I said, I really actually enjoy some of the Tier One or Tier Two as much as attorneys will say I only want that one where they’re hiring me for the full board, I kind of like the Tier One, Tier Two representations. I’m not saying I’d make a whole practice out of it, but it allows for different ways to help people besides just go to court with them and go to battle it out.

And, I think there are other ways you can help people. They’re going to go, they’re going to certainly go to court but there are other ways and I think it has a kind of organic kind of way about it in the sense that you help these people. You set it all up and maybe they didn’t need an attorney to go to court with them but it still helped them. It got them a good result basically. I think that’s the most important thing is making people happy with the results and happy with the representation. The more options you can provide, the more things you can do for the client, the better off you are basically, so that’s the biggest change in my practice since working with Unbundled is this tiered kind of concept. And, like I said, it’s not perfect, I’m always trying to see how I can make it even better and more useful to the client and things like that. So, I’m always tweaking it.

Dave Aarons: Yeah we’ve got, we’ve just-

Marcus Torigian: Sometimes those tweaks work and sometimes they don’t. You know.

Dave Aarons: Right. Yeah, we’ve done some really great episodes with you know attorneys like Brad Latta. He’s been working with us for a little over two years now I think. And Les Sandoval and we really dive into the Unbundled options they use and how they structure and the flexibility, so we’ll be sure to pass along those episodes as well so you can listen to those, and you might get some ideas so you can start honing your craft in the tiers and maybe come up with some other options you haven’t considered before as well too.

Marcus Torigian: Okay. Sounds good.

Dave Aarons: All right. Well listen Marcus, I want to thank you so much for taking the time here and sharing how you’ve been doing this. Especially your call on immigration is especially helpful too because we’ve got a lot of attorneys where immigration is still only a few months this is recorded in April, so it’s still somewhat new so those comments were really valuable and I really just appreciate your time, the work you’re doing for the clients. My clients [inaudible 01:01:55]A lot of times that you’re electing to hire you as a lot of folks, so we really appreciate the work you’re doing and I’m sure they do too.

Marcus Torigian: I appreciate that. Thank you for the time yourself. I know it’s a Friday afternoon. Sitting here talking about this stuff I appreciate you spending time with it as well.

Dave Aarons: Yep. Absolutely. So with that, we’ll go ahead and wrap up, so thank you again for jumping on today. And for everyone else that’s listening, I hope you enjoyed the episode and we’ll see you on the next one. Thanks again for listening.

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